Back on December 2018, we sat down with the CEO of Dr. Wealth, Alvin Chow.
We talked about what is Factor-based investing, what he
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Willie will also be holding a 2-hour workshop on the 3rd Dec 2018 in Singapore to further explain some of his concept of creating a dividend portfolio.
To join us on 3rd Dec 2018 to find out more about income investing,
Stanley: Hello!Everyone! Welcome to our last Facebook live event for 2018. My name is Stanley,and today we have a very, very special guest, he’s a good friend, and I havebeen following his stuff for many, many years. He is none other than Mr. AlvinChow; the CEO now of Dr. Wealth, and he is one of the key-champion of – what wecall “Factor-Based Investing” in Singapore, and it is an approach that I’m stilllearning also, well we have a chat just now. Learning about what it is all about,he will spend some time talking about that, and before that; we just want tointroduce Alvin, and ask him about, how he come about becoming an investor. Hello!Welcome Alvin.
Alvin: Hi! Thanks, Stanley, forhaving me.
Stanley: Yeah!before we dive right into the topic of today, maybe you just introduce yourselfa little bit. I remember, I was following you since your days in Big Fat Purse;maybe some of them might not know about that, but maybe you introduced a littlebit, how did you get started in this space?
Alvin: Okay! I actually startedto be interested in investing in my university days; year 3 to be specific. So,I was studying Mechanical Engineering, but it was funny that I eventually foundmore interest in Finance and Investing, I don’t know how that came about, butit was hard first going into it; and it was 2007, it was the last crazy bullrun. Probably if you guys remember, and it was a little bit funny, for me thatwas the reason why, I bought like warrant, that the first thing I bought.
Alvin: That was because warrantis a great try. So, I could use very little money to buy stocks that are ofbigger value, I still remember I bought the Costco Corps warrant, and withinone week I got my money, [Unclear 02:26] and after that, the next one month Istarted losing Money, [Crosstalk 02:31] but that gives me some interest tocontinue, and to learn more about markets, then I realized a lot of things Idon’t know at the point in time, and was lucky that I didn’t really get caughtin the main market in 2008.
Stanley: Oh! Okay.
Alvin: Yeah! that was alsoaround the same time that I started the Big Fat Purse, as a blog to reallywrite down my journey, what I learned about investing. So, it was really more personalthan making public, since blogging was like getting more popular, just right it,whether anybody reads about it, doesn’t matter. It was how I got started, andthen I went to work for six years, then before I decided to make this a business,and to provide financial education to the public, and that was how it happenedin 2014. That was when education started.
Stanley: Right! Okay. Yeah! youmentioned that you were working, I believe in the SAF after your University,but at that time you were already blogging right? During your work? Okay! butwhat makes you, you know, after you decided to quit from your job, what makesyou decide to jump into this industry in particular?
Alvin: As I mentioned, it was apassion or a thing that I really enjoyed. In fact, there were a lot of hobbiesin the past I had, bicycle or all this kind of things, it just comes and goes. Butthis one kind of stuck around for a long time. For me, this is the real lovenow. Right! Get married with this. Yeah! So, I was thinking about my career andwhat I wanted to do, so I asked myself very simple question; will I regret notdoing it, twenty, thirty years down the road? And then my answer was “Yes”. So,then it made it my decision a lot easier, so that’s why I left and started thiscompany, yeah, and along the way we did an acquisition on Dr. Wealth; it wasaround 2 years ago, and we can’t I have two names right? So, we decided tochoose one that sounds more professional. Less casual as the other one, it wasjust a choice, it wasn’t really a deliberate kind of discussion among theshareholders.
Stanley: Right! I see!! Okay!!! noproblem. I think more people are joining in now. Hello! JJ, and I think – Oh!my colleague; Willie is listening in as well. So, if you have any question forAlvin during this time, we’re gonna discuss about, you know, what he thinks ofthe 2018 market, and also what he looks at in 2019. If you have any question forhim, just type it in the discussion box below, and I’ll try to get most – allof them answered if possible, but before that you are one of the persons that’sactively promoting what we call factor base investing. What exactly is factor-basedinvesting? Because it is also something that I – to be honest, I am NOT veryfamiliar with as well.
Alvin: It’s actually in one ofthe – I believe it was in one of the chapters of CFA program [Laugh 05:56]Factor-Based Investing wasn’t invented by me, it actually came from the Academia;the finance and economics professor based in the US. So, the most important yearprobably you should remember was 1992, that was when two Professors; Eugene Famaand Kenneth French, from the Chicago School of business, they started to reallytry to find, what really works in the market, the stock market, what reallygives you high returns, and what really not? So, they are trying to prove thisproof investment matrix, that’s in general the essence of it, and of course, theydon’t just start from anywhere, I just look at the stock market, and see whoare already successful investors, and of course, Warren Buffet was one of them,and you can trace all the way back to Benjamin Graham in 1934, and also, maybea lot people don’t know, but Benjamin Graham has a lot successful disciples, likeyour Walter Schloss, Irving Kahn, and just that of course, Warren Buffett is thebest of the class.
Alvin: So, they started to see,is it because they’re just really lucky to be born at the right time, or no, oris there really a secret sauce to their methodology? So, that’s where theystarted to dig out the key metrics that they use, one of it is; price-to-bookratio, very classic value investing strategy, and they also realized that someof them tend to buy the smaller cap stocks, then they started to test; Okay! Letme use data, financial data and let’s say you form a portfolio of ten – tendifferent portfolios of stocks, and you form them by grouping them into theirvarious degree of price to book ratio, let’s say you buy the cheapest group; whichis a lowest price to book ratio, versus the higher ones. what they found wasthat, the cheapest group stock defined by the lowest price to book ratio actuallydelivers higher returns than any other groups with the higher price to bookratio. So, in the essence, it proofs that just by quantitatively [Unclear07:53] blind, they just formed this portfolio based on just this one metric, thefound that you can just deliver high returns, and there was the same for thesmall cap universe. They found that smaller cap stocks tend to deliver higherreturns than big cap stocks. Right! So, in their 1992 paper, they kick startedthis factor base investing, it got a lot more of the attention in academia, andthey started to research other things, what other metrics, or other factors maywork in the stock market? So, things like profitability, higher profitable stocks,dividend high returns, then lower profitable stocks. This one is no-brainer, butthe characteristics are very different from deep value stocks, because highlyprofitable stocks maybe sell it very cheap, and cheap stocks and maybe sell itvery profitable, but even if you buy the very cheap one or you buy the veryprofitable one; either one will still give you decent high returns. Theystarted to find more and more such factors, and that’s why the whole movement orthe whole campaign is called factor-based investing.
Stanley: I see! Okay. It’s all comingback now, it’s all coming back now. I remember, should be from level 2 of thetheory… but for what you discussed, because it’s not just one style ofinvesting, it is a combination of styles. So, should the investor just focus onmaybe one niche of it, or from your opinion, you should have a holistic approach.So, they should have stocks within each different factor here to say. So, howdo you control your portfolio?
Alvin: So, it is yes and no,let’s start with a simple explanation first of all. So, yes in the sense thatany investor, can just focus on one factor, lest say you prefer the value factor,that you want to build portfolio value stocks; it’s fine, or you want to builda portfolio of profitable stocks; it’s also fine, the only good thing is that,if you go from factor based approach; at least you know that the metric isproven, and statistically, if you use this right, you have an advantage overthe rest. it’s not blindly just you know follow your investment strategy. So, Ithink that’s not a bad thing, the only downside is that, we all know value don’twork every single year, some years that value don’t work as well as profitability,and vice versa. Profitability also doesn’t work every year. So, the new beliefis that, besides just doing as allocation, like your stock bonds, commodities, etc.…even in stocks itself, you can also diversify by factors. Like value and profitability;these two very distinct kinds of stocks in your portfolio, and you put themtogether, your overall profitability will smooth up. One works better than the other,and in different periods of time.
Stanley: I see! Okay. Can you shareone myth? I think a lot of investors tend to assume is the case, but youmentioned to me just now one particular case, I find it very, very interestingfrom the research on the paper that actually that factor doesn’t prove to behigh written. Can you share a little bit about that?
Alvin: Yeah! A lot of investorsprefer stocks that have high ROE; Return on Equity, or even high ROA; Return onAsset. This either one, but research has found that they don’t really give youextra returns, over to the indices for the main period. So, that’s why I preferthis kind of using her research, because it’s a lot more objective, and it’sproven by somebody has done the proving, I don’t need to do it with my ownmoney, that’s why I will rather like stand on the shoulders of giants, and justapply what I’ve learnt. So, there are a few explanations, so the funny thingabout factor-based investing is that, there are many, many explanations. I willprefer usually from the behavioral finance point of view of explanation, againbecause the market is so complex, nobody can really find a causation, one otherexplanation is the high earning stock tends to attract competition, because let’ssay this industry, while you’re already making your own money, you attract theattention of other people going in, and then when you have more competitors, youprobably have to be a lot more price competitive, and that’s where your returnsmay drop. So, from the point, and of course, Warren Buffett came up with thoseidea; competitive advantage; I want an economic moat, they will surround thisthat other people cannot take away. Yes! So, in fact there are outliers, Ican’t remember where I got the statistics, but they are about 4% of this higherrisk stock will not be destroyed by competitors.
Stanley: Only 4%?
Alvin: Yeah! So, the odds of itis very, very low. So, if you really want you to defy the odds, you have to doa lot of work, and this is probably why Warren Buffett concentrates more on portfolio,because you saw how to find and you find one you better pull lines here.
Stanley: I blame on Buffet because heis the one advocate High ROE.
Alvin: I don’t know, I thinkmaybe he’s not explicit to say that about him, maybe he is referring to theuniverse of that, he’s able to identify right…
Stanley: His mind certainly worksdifferently from ours. Okay! More and more people are joining in. Hello David!Hello Mike! Karina! WOW!!! Okay. Kari is asking if there is gonna be a transcriptfor this Facebook live? Yes! but please give us some time, because we need tospend some time to write down all the words. So, it would take some time, Ihope you can join us throughout the full session of Facebook Live. Yeah! Let’sdive right into what our main topic for today before we talk about 2019, howhas the year been for you, 2018?
Alvin: [Inaudible 14:15]
Stanley: What are some of the – Iguess, what’s the main concern that you’re seeing maybe even for your portfolio,is there a real concern that you have, or what’s happening, how do you see thisyear?
Alvin: I – Psychologically, Ialways prepare myself that I may need to hold through the crash, I pull myselfthrough the crash, I know there are a lot of investors, who are very fearful ofthe crashes, and that’s why they alwaystry to find out; are there any indicators to tell us whether the market iscrashing? So, they can sell their stocks and exchange cash, but I think it isvery difficult, and there’s also a price for mis-timing. For example, I hearpeople talk about, Oh! The stock market is crashing since five years ago, and youprobably have lost out a lot of gains. Yeah! even though the portfolio is downthis year, we are still positive over the past five years. So, [Unclear 15:15]so I think mistiming is also very heavy price to pay, so that’s why – yes, itdoesn’t feel good for the portfolio to go down, but I don’t believe that I cansell everything before the crash so with that, I actually be a lot morepsychological stable; say that it is fine, market is like that, we don’t haveto respond to it, and have knee-jerk reactions, just because we don’t feel good.
Stanley: Yeah! this is very similarto my thoughts, I realized that every time I tried to time the market, everytime I’ll be wrong, because I have been thinking that the market is expensivefor the past three years really, but luckily I stay invested as well, butlooking at 2019; I think a lot of market has actually declined, especially theHong Kong market, and the Singapore market. Now, we have one of the lowest valuationsaround Asian-Pacific, what are you looking for in 2019, which industry inparticular that you really seize that opportunity right now?
Alvin: Okay! First of all, Ithink Asia has been very bad for the last few years, and if – becausepersonally, I also invest heavily in Asia, relatively to the United States. So,it’s very normal to look like a fool for the past few years, because the Asianmarket is doing very badly, and I also agree with you that Hong Kong and Singaporeare cheap, and in particular, I think Hong Kong is very, very cheap, and infact more than half of my portfolio is in Hong Kong itself, but that doesn’tmean that there’s no gems here, there are still quite a number. In terms of thesector that I believed in, I think I can’t answer that question properly,because it’s due to the methodology that I use, which is factor-based investing.So, based on different factors, you’ll give us different kind of sectors, and there’sthe other beauty that you would diversify actually to different sectors. Idon’t do sector picking, that or this sector is turn around, I’m going to turn around,maybe I’ll look at some stocks there, no I usually go by factors. For example,value will tend to give you like property stocks, cash rich stocks, then yourprofitability factor will give you more asset like kind companies; techeducation, F&B. So, I tend to approach with diversify sector kind ofexposure as in case, because I don’t know just way into one, and then got itwrong.
Stanley: Okay! Right! That’sFascinating, on the follow up question; if you’re looking at mostly of thefactor, the criteria that you’re looking at, how do you decide on yourportfolio allocation, is it based on one factor or based on the companiesitself?
Alvin: It’s actually attwo levels. So, you’re right at both levels. So, the first level is at the factordiversification; that would be a bit tricky, why I say that is because, ofcourse, the best is half-half. Let’s say you want to do value half, thenprofitability half, then it becomes very balanced, but of course, in the realworld, it may not be so nice, and tidy, and orderly. So, for example, it’s alot easier to find value stocks than profitable stocks. So, naturally yourvalue factor would tend to be large exposure compared to the profitabilityfactor. So, that’s one, and then at the second level, at the stock level; Itend to put more money into a profitable stock, and less money into a value stock.So, in other words, my value side is more diversified, whereas my profitable sideis a lot more concentrated. Yeah! and it’s also because for profitability as Isaid, you find less stocks, that’ll show you how to concentrate more.
Stanley: So, you’re saying most ofthe stocks on the stock market is not profitable?
Alvin: I’m not saying they’renot profitable, it doesn’t warrant definition of profitable from the factorpoint of view.
Stanley: Okay! Cool! Great! that’s interesting.Yeah! maybe I just take a short break, because I just want everyone to knowthat this show is actually sponsored by our sponsor FSM1; which is one of thelowest cost brokerage in Singapore, we try to find partners, that we can worktogether for a longer time, and one of the key question I always get is which brokershould I use? We have really searched in Singapore for a long time, and FSM1was really one of the ones that is able to give us a good interface to trade,but also offers a good value, and very transparent in their pricing. So, ifyou’re looking for one brokers for you to start out with, do checkout FSM1.comfor them.
Alvin: I have FSMone for my son.
Stanley: Ah! very good! Yes! Yeah. Theyactually have an account that you can study as a beneficiary right for your sonbut you can control it for a while. So, you can change your decision next time,if it’s not nice for you. Okay! Looking at 2019! Right! Okay. Let’s go down tothe specific, of course you guys, if you have any questions also, do commentdown below. One question that I have previously when we sent out the email toeveryone, the invitation is from BL, I think he’s one of your followers, maybebecause he asked; he is basically saying, that you have been, you “Alvin” hasbeen a great promoter of the ETF, Using ETF, and just want to understand. Do yousee the risk of ETF, because some ETF, they need market makers to make surethat they have enough liquidity, do you see this market makers as a risk, howcan we be sure that they will always be there when we need a liquidity?
Alvin: My understanding aboutmarket makers is that they are usually hired by the issuers, and so you’reright if the liquid is low, the thing you need the market makers to holdinventories of the units, to be in a buy and a sell site. when an investor’sneed to complete the transaction. So, I don’t think that the risk of marketmaker or should I say, I don’t think the risk is at the market maker. [Crosstalk22:02] If ETF’s become like a dominant investment vehicle, it might becomerisky.
Stanley: Okay! Why?
Alvin: So, for example inSingapore, I don’t think we see the problem now, or even in the US, yes isincreasingly getting riskier in the sense that, a lot of money are moving awayfrom active management to passive. The US’s, hedge funds are losing, ETF’sgetting the fund manager, and the problem is that ETF’s are like veryrule-based kind of investments. So, for example, I invest in S&P 500 ETF,the manager is only mandated to buy the S&P for ETF’s. So, if they becometoo large, they became the one that pushes S&P for index up. Correct? andthen we’ll basically say well so easy to make money, then you plow more moneyinto S&P for ETF, and then the manager will blindly buy the foreigncompanies, the same exactly foreign companies, but the thousands of stocks in theUS but this finally will get them attention over and over again, and that pushesup the index for them. So, that is that reason I’m talking about, because thatis a virtual cycle, the reverse would be a visual cycle, if people pull moneyout, the index will fall faster. The most feared consequence is that stockmarket crash might be larger than it would have been without its ETF’s. By thispoint I don’t think we had a stage here that ETF’s are controlling the market,I don’t think so.
Stanley: Yeah! I actually have exactsame view as you in, I think that’s really a key race for ETF, because ETF isalmost – when they say passive investing, it’s almost investing blindly, youdon’t even know what’s inside, and everyone is just plowing in because it lookslike the simplest way to do it, and when the trend reverse, everyone will alsorush out at the same time. Especially, ETF is so equipped now in the US market.Okay! For 2019, let’s drum roll; what is the – maybe you want to share one stockwith us today, what’s the one stock that you will share with us today?
Alvin: Okay! the family is actuallylately in the news quite often, Riady family, at the first read, a lot peopleare complaining. Firstly, James Riady was put for corruption charges inIndonesia, regarding one of the major projects Meikarta I think, bribery of alocal official to get to build the project, and that sends off shock waves to alot of Riady controlled kind of stocks. All their Lippo stocks in Indonesia, evensome of the stocks that are listed here, like the First REITs, we have exposureto Indonesia, like Lippo mall, it has exposure to Indonesia. All those stockswere beaten down, even their bonds as well, some of their Lippo bonds here alsowere wiped down, and the stock that I’m talking about, actually also belong tothe Riady family, which is OUE, it was smacked down pretty bad, even before thenews, is the value, in the sense that they are selling very good properties,but with half the price. Okay! Half their valuations, and they own about 60Plus percent of OUE Commercial REITs, 30 plus percent of OUE Hospitality Trusts,and the downside is that, they are slightly more geared than the rest of theproperty counters, and probably that’s the reason why maybe some of theinvestors shun them. In fear of the rate hikes, that they need to have a higherdebt burden, that they’re gonna pay, but that’s it, I think that it doesn’twarrant that kind of price. Yeah! I think their NAV is probably close to four dollars,their share price now is over 150, and over 70% of the SSR, and theirproperties are like your CBD areas, your OUE fronts, OUE downtown, US banktower, some Depot Plaza in Shanghai. So, they are very premium kind ofproperties, and they’re selling it in very deep prices now. Then some peoplemay say; eh ya! It’s cheap, but a lot of other property call are way cheaper, sosome people may be worried that eh, because issue for a long time. So, in factanalysts have met with the management, I think one, two months ago, and there’ssome – not one, but a few potential catalysts, that may unlock the value. Oneis that they are in negotiation to sell the US Bank Tower, they bought it like 300plus million, SN Huntsman around 50 million, they’re gonna sell it around 600,650 million, and that would unlock a good part of that assets value, so theysay that it should finalize engine which is think smart. Okay! So, that’s onebig catalyst. Second catalyst is…
Stanley: On that first catalyst, didthey already mention that they’re gonna they already use the proceeded to like800, or give a special dividend?
Alvin: A special dividend.
Stanley: Right! Okay.
Alvin: Although, there was aspeculation from analysts, I think they meant to being in promise. Recently,they just sold the downtown, OUE downtown to their OUE Com REIT for some cashover there as well. That’d be a right issue for Com REIT, they are doing a lotof restructuring in the Riady Empire, and it is clear to me that OUE is like theircenterpiece; their chess master, so which means they will definitely make thatlook a lot better than rest. So, I think that is the stock that I think isinteresting, and their near-term catalyst is coming. So, another catalyst is that,OUE Downtown also have a hospitality section, I think is service apartment ifI’m not wrong, also approve for shut time stay, so I’m not sure whether they’regoing to turn it to a hotel, that could also be sold to OUE Hegde Trust, andthere was no recycle to capital King. So, I think in the next year with allthese things being sold, the company will deliver, their debt will come down toa more manageable level. The last one is another catalyst that the management alsomentioned, because they also bought bolst REIT, which is the manager for First REIT,and we know that this kind of property AUM management kind of business is verygood. Just take a look at ERA estate management, so is that kind of idea, theymight list that, and that would have more cash coming back to OUE again. Theydidn’t say its Bowspring REIT, but I’m guessing that it’s Bowspring REIT. Mostlybecause, it is a top management platform, this reform… I think we have quite a numberof catalysts that’s coming up, and maybe because of all these probes and issues,they might want to move even faster to make sure that clients are protected,because OUE is run by Stephen Riady, not James Riady, his brother. So, maybethey want [Unclear 30:02] Oh so, I think the mess is good for the share pricebecause it is probably priced in and then with all these catalysts coming up,things might get rosier next year.
Stanley: Okay! Interesting, when youtalk about this – I think you mentioned this now their P/B, they are tradingless than 0.4times their NAV, but this company, is most of their business stillcoming from asset ownership, or more from the development business?
Alvin: Actually, more from theasset – the investment property; a big chunk of their assets. The developmentside, I don’t think they have much now after Twin Peaks, and it’s always verylumpy. So, my view is always that, focus on a core; which is the investmentproperties, rental, there’s more baseline recurring, then just treat as developmentproperties as some bonus, revenue bonus profits. That’s how I usually see it. So,I usually discount the development properties.
Stanley: Okay! Yeah. So, you usuallydiscount the development properties.
Alvin: I only get a core oninvestment properties.
Stanley: Right! Okay. when you talkabout the company being a bit highly geared, but you see that they have plansto reduce that down, following some of the merger, and also spin off, but whenyou compare it, I was going to ask, when you compare it with some of the other– also high quality property companies; say like Hong Kong land, also trading roughlyabout I think around 0.4, 0.5 of NAV. When you choose this kind of devaluedstocks, would you rather just buy the bulk of them, or you still prefer to juststick to one OUE?
Alvin: I think it’s not wrongto just buy all of them. you never know, who is gonna have the catalyst, if youknow what it means, and you buy it, it means its insider trading.
Stanley: Just buy one.
Alvin: So, that’s the thingabout value as I said. Value; I tend to be more diversified, so I would tend tospread a bit more around different value stocks, rather than focus on one,because you might just be wrong. So, you’re right. Hong Kong is also prettymuch undervalued, but relatively I would think that OUE have more catalystscoming up, Hong Kong Land has been very stable for a long time. Yeah! Very,very long time, likewise for UOL as well. Unless they want to spin off UnitedREIT, else I don’t think there is any catalyst in the near…
Stanley: I think that they prefer tojust keep it to themselves, especially when these companies donate the cash.
Alvin: So, as OUE now; theyneed to deliver, they need to push their balance sheet. So, I think there issome push with the parent company, maybe there’s really some push that theyhave to do something about it, and when they do something about it, there’s achance and there’s a catalyst.
Stanley: [Laughs 33:23] Yes, veryoptimistic way of looking at it. I wanted to ask you also regarding thediversification of these devalued stocks, because you say it’s better to havewider diversification. When we look at investors like Walter Schloss; who championedand is one of the best devalue investor around and also maybe in Singapore,some of the good firm managers, who devalue like aggregate or human capital, theytend to own many, many stocks or a few hundreds, that might work for them,given that they are a firm, but for individuals like us, how should we – youknow, it’s impossible to diversify and do such a big wide range, and well; doyou see us just owning like five to ten of these devalued stocks as risky, ordo you think we are almost as diversified as the big guys?
Alvin: My view is that, shareminimally fifteen.
Stanley: Okay! So, fifteen on …
Alvin: So, I think that five toten is a bit risky, for a devalued professional, because it’s just a statisticsgame, devalued works, but you don’t know what works, which specific stocks workbeforehand, you only know who got that right, but it’s too late if you knowafter that. True, you have the form portfolio of that devalue, and you must haveenough sample size per say, [Unclear 34:51]. So, if you have too little, it’seither you do them well, or you underperform very seriously, so usually sayminimally 15; one five, in different sector. So, you can buy Hong Kong, thenyou buy OUE, that’s two property sectors.
Stanley: Okay! Okay! Cool! Well,thank you so much for your time today Alvin, I think I learnt a lot today, notjust on factor-based investing, and of course, I’ll definitely go and check outOUE Limited as well. You guys as well, if you have any last question about OUE Ltd.,if not, do check out the stuff that Alvin is talking about, and also if youwant to check out more about Dr. Wealth; you can go to drwealth.com, and I’llshare his page up on the screen, if you can see it, where he talked more aboutwhat is factor-based investing. I’m not sure if you have the time table for maybeyour next workshop on the website. would they be able to find it out?
Alvin: Yeah! there is, and actually, I need disclosure; we ownOUE Ltd. I want to disclose it.
Stanley: Okay.Do check out his website at drwealth.com to find out more. That’s it from us atValue Invest Asia, the final Facebook live for 2018. we’ll see you guys in 2019.Thank You Alvin. Cheers.
Alvin: Thank you Stanley, seeyou.
Stanley: See You.